Episode 173: Where is All the Plus-Size Snow Gear – Part 1

Interview with Marielle Elizabeth

Sponsored by IKON Pass, Danner

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For people who wear plus-size apparel, it’s often downright impossible to find the gear necessary to get out and stay warm, safe, and dry on the mountain. That’s what this two-part series is about.

In part one, we talk with Marielle Elizabeth. Marielle is a photographer, model, fat advocate, and the writer of a viral essay in The Cut titled “Apparently, I’m Too Fat to Ski.” Marielle speaks first hand about the need for plus size winter apparel, as well as the changes she’d like to see across the outdoor industry.

In part 2, we hear from Mon Balon, the founder of Plus Snow – an online retail shop that sells plus size snow gear to fulfill the need that Marielle speaks of. Part 2 is available now in your feed, as well as here on our website.

Full transcript available after the photos and resources.

Banner image of and by Marielle Elizabeth

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Featured in this episode: Marielle Elizabeth

Hosted by Gale Straub

Music is by James Childs and Kazi Jay licensed via MusicBed. Music also by Josh Woodard.

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Featured in this Episode

Marielle Elizabeth

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TRANSCRIPT

Note: This transcript was lightly edited and created using a transcription service. As such it may contain spelling errors.

Gale Straub – Narration:

I’m Gale Straub and you’re listening to She Explores. This is part one of a two part series on plus size snow gear. Both are available in your feed today.

Marielle Elizabeth:

There’s like a moment when you’re skiing, if everything lines up properly like on a freshly groomed trail or fresh powder, when you can like get your edge digging in and building up momentum through the pressure of the ski where it like kind of snaps under your body. And it’s just like such a satisfying feeling, it feels like floating or flying like skiing because it’s not like running or, or other modes of transportation. The feeling of coasting is just pure joy.

Gale Straub – Narration:

That feeling of weightlessness, of almost flying — it’s something we experience as kids, pumping our legs on a playground swing, higher and higher. It’s a freeing feeling we crave, no matter our age, and skiing and snowboarding are one way to unlock it. But it’s no secret that there are various barriers to snowsports for many people. It’s often expensive and difficult to access. Snow communities can be insular, the dialect unique and intimidating for the uninitiated. And for plus size people, it’s often downright impossible to find the gear necessary to get out and stay warm, safe, and dry on the mountain. That’s what this two part series is about. In part one, we talk with Marielle Elizabeth. Marielle is a photographer, model, fat advocate, and the writer of a viral essay in The Cut titled “Apparently, I’m Too Fat to Ski.” Marielle speaks first hand about the need for plus size winter apparel, as well as the changes she’d like to see across the outdoor industry. In part two, we’ll hear from Mon Balon, the founder of Plus Snow – an online retail shop that sells plus size snow gear to fulfill the need that Marielle speaks of. Before we jump in with Marielle, I should disclose that I am not plus size. I can casually walk into an outdoor shop and find base layers, insulation, and shells that fit me. And, for the most part, I can do it without judgment. Yet the average size of a woman the United States is a size 16. The outdoor industry should be devoting more resources to serving plus size consumers. And you really shouldn’t take it from someone with lived experience, a fat woman who loves to ski.

Marielle Elizabeth:

Oh God, I’ve been skiing since I was like six. I grew up in Canada. I live in a very Northern place. I believe we’re on the 53rd parallel. And we often share the same weather as Siberia. So I live in a very cold climate right now. There’s the, a foot of snow on the ground. So I grew up ski racing. Um, it was something myself and my younger brother did. And so three times a week, I was on a ski Hill until junior high. And then in junior high, I would go to the Rocky mountains almost every weekend to ski. So skiing was a huge part of my life growing up.

Gale Straub – Narration:

Marielle loved the feeling of skiing, as we heard at the start of the episode, but she also loved the connections she made, the fun she had with friends and family, as well as the closeness to nature that she experienced when she was out there.

Marielle Elizabeth:

Being able to do that with your friends, being able to do that with your loved ones or your family is such a joy because you get to have this unique experience. You get to experience nature from a perspective. We so rarely get to, to be completely absorbed by a mountain, and then to be able to talk and share that with people is like, what a wonderful experience, what an honor, like what, what a great way to spend a weekend.

Gale Straub:

Mm. When was the last time you went skiing?

Marielle Elizabeth:

Like a decade ago, I would say close to a decade ago. It would have been, uh, around the time. I actually was certified as a ski instructor as a race coach and my friend and I went when I was in university. I would’ve been in my first or second year of university. I was a varsity athlete at the time I wrestled Olympics, like not in the Olympics, but like that style of wrestling. Um, and I wrestled for team Canada as well as my university. It paid for my university. And so I would have still been a very competitive athlete at that time when I last went skiing

Gale Straub:

And you write in your article from The Cut that you specifically say that clothing confers access. So a piece of, of not skiing in this last 10 years has been because you really haven’t had the kind of access that you could have had had you have the clothing in order to skate.

Marielle Elizabeth:

I think that when we think about clothing, we often resolve it to something a little more frivolous than it is in actuality. Clothing is something fun you get to pick from and get to wear when it’s readily available. But if you exist in larger sizes, if you have a mobility challenges, if you have other things in your life that dictate the clothing that you’re allowed to wear, it immediately becomes clear how reliant we are as on clothing, as a way to access certain spaces. So obviously for the purpose of this conversation, we’re talking about winter sports. Okay, well, I want to go snowshoeing. I say this as a person that legitimately owned snowshoes, well, I’m going to need base layers. I’m going to need gloves. I’m going to need boots that fit my calves. I’m going to need some sort of water resistant pan, and I’m going to need a strong and warm coat, right?

Marielle Elizabeth:

Okay. Let’s say you’re a size 24 or a size 26. The ability to find any of those items just got extremely narrow. If not impossible. My interest in snowshoeing, hasn’t changed in the course of the sentence, the ability to find my size and my clothing is the thing that’s holding me back. And I think that that experience, um, exists in so many spaces. I mean, if you look at plus size people trying to find clothing, job interviews, trying to find clothing to work in corporate environments, trying to find clothing for black tie events or wedding parties or any part of your life that requires very specific apparel. Uh, often those are the places where you see this huge lack of choice. If there is choice at all, for people that are plus sized, and it’s not just about not having the right thing to wear, it’s having the ability to take part and exist in those spaces.

Marielle Elizabeth:

And then it becomes kind of this self fulfilling prophecy of, well, I never see fat people on the ski Hill, or I never see fat people at fancy events, or I never see fat people in high paying jobs. It must be because they don’t want to be in that space. It must be because they’re not motivated to put themselves in those spaces when in reality, it’s, we don’t have the vital things that we need to be a part of those spaces. And so how on earth could we possibly exist in those spaces? And then from a brand side, they’ll go, Oh, well, we don’t have customers in those sizes. And it’s like, well, you don’t sell those sizes. How could you possibly know that there are people that want to do this activity if you’re making it impossible for them to do it.

Gale Straub:

And then if they do potentially sell those sizes, they might not do as good a job as they could marketing the fact that they sell those sizes.

Marielle Elizabeth:

Yep. That’s a big issue. I think it’s, I think it’s really interesting the number of brands that will launch a plus size collection and do the bare minimum of marketing or market it for the week that they launch it. And then immediately remove those images of larger bodies from their social media, from their landing page. So it becomes extremely hard for plus sized people to find the places that actually sell their sizes because we are so underrepresented in their media and marketing. And I think it’s a little bit ridiculous to assume plus size people are just going to every website, hoping that they have a plus size section that will fit them instead of brands taking on that initiative, reaching out to outdoors groups that focus on fat people or outdoor groups that focus on folks of all bodies wanting to get back into nature and really trying to market in those directions.

Gale Straub:

And you have found plus size outdoor apparel, whether it’s been snow or otherwise related, has it largely been through word of mouth or through those, those say like Fat Girls Hiking or like another group that is catering to two plus size outdoor lovers? Like it, has that been how you found gear?

Marielle Elizabeth:

Yes, absolutely. A hundred percent. I think that the fat community is so intermesh and so committed to helping one another find success. I spend a lot of time talking about ethical fashion as well, and it is amazing to see that in like buy, sell trade groups, things like that. There are constantly people asking questions to other plus size people. How does the fit of this brand actually work in real life? Did you, the quality of it was their size chart accurate to the size that they say that it is that, that sort of ins inside information one-to-one, um, is I would argue so strong in the plus size community because size charts are chaos. Uh, they’re different from brand to brand the fit of one, like my closet right now, I have things from an XXL to a five X that’s like six size spread.

Marielle Elizabeth:

And so, uh, yeah, I think that there is this wonderful sense of comradery of people wanting to help one another out within the plus size community to be successful, especially because almost all clothing that I buy. And I think most people buy, uh, when you are above straight sizing, um, is online. And so you’re adding in this other level of risk where you’re buying something without ever trying it on from a company you may have never tried on clothing from and are hoping that by the time it gets to you, it fits like it says it well. And I think that there’s this other, like, that’s this other piece to access into plus size people taking up winter sports is the amount of commitment to the financial investment to waiting to finding the piece to begin with is just so high that with all those barriers, it almost reaches this point of where you go, well, is it actually worth it for me to invest my time and money into this endeavor?

Gale Straub:

Hmm. What, what would you say are some of the other, you know, I feel like we’ve touched on a few, but some of the other misconceptions about plus sized people and snow sports.

Marielle Elizabeth:

Uh, I think the biggest misconception is that plus size people just aren’t interested in exercising or being outdoors. I think that misconception comes from years of marketing, one specific type of body in the wilderness so much like we’ve seen in fashion for ever. Uh, and I think that when we keep seeing the same person in the outdoors or the same, like archetype of who takes, who exists in these spaces, it’s really hard for us to challenge ourselves and ask, well, why don’t we see other people, or am I not participating in this activity as a plus sized person? Because I simply don’t see myself in these spaces. And if I don’t see myself in these spaces and therefore I won’t participate in them, then how will we ever shift that baseline of who is in the great outdoors? And I also think another really big barrier that is always worth mentioning is the idea that fitness is only this one thing.

Marielle Elizabeth:

Um, in the sense of like, if I want to go hiking, it has to be up a mountain. I have to bring a huge backpack. It has to be eight hours. I have to be willing to endure it indefinitely. And I think kind of the same applies to winter sports. It has to be in the freezing cold. It has to be hard. I have to be willing to be outside for hours. Whereas I think that engaging in winter sports can, as simple as bundling up and going for a long walk in your neighborhood or taking advantage of green spaces in your city. I had a wonderful talk with my partner recently, after we did a 5k hike up a, you know, midsize, midsize mountain in baths. And I said like, I really dislike hiking uphill. And, uh, my partner said, but that’s what hiking is. And I said, no, I would argue that hiking is spending time outdoors and being in nature. And so even just redefining what an outdoor activity looks like, whether it’s in the summer or the winter is so important when asking, am I making this accessible for more people,

Gale Straub – Narration:

We’ll talk with Marielle about the kind of shopping experience she’d like to have as well as how straight-size folks can help speak up for change. All that more after the break.

Gale Straub – Narration:

We’re back. Before the break, Marielle discussed the importance of broadening our definition of outdoor activities to be more accessible for more people, especially people in larger bodies. But as we talk about the many ways we can move our bodies in nature, those bodies still need apparel and accessories to have fun out there.

Marielle Elizabeth:

Base layers is such a great example of that is I believe plus snow does have base layers and they’re one of the first companies I’ve seen actually create plus sized base layers because I find so many winter brands we’ll do a snow pack. We’ll do a jacket. And by so many, I mean like six, all like so many, I’m putting that in air quotes without ever thinking of like base layers, long underwear, thermal, like things, polar fleeces, Merino sweaters, like all the things that you wear under the coat, because like owning snow pants is great, but I’m not going to own snow pants and go bare leg. Uh, and I’m not going to wear jeans if I’m going skiing. So we’ve kind of looped back to the initial challenge. So really thinking about what the apparel looks like in a really broad sense, I think is so important for these designers and manufacturers.

Gale Straub:

And I would imagine, having those designers and manufacturers talking to people like you, you know, like you’re an advocate you’re out there, you are having conversations with outdoor companies to help change what their inventory looks like and who they’re serving and what their marketing looks like.

Marielle Elizabeth:

Yeah, absolutely. And reaching out to plus size outdoor communities and, and giving clothing away for fit testing, or reaching out to the leaders of those groups. I know Gregory backpacks, I believe it’s Gregory Greg guar, Gregory backpacks, uh, just worked with, uh, Jenny Bruso, who does, uh, one of the like plus sized hiking groups. The name escapes me right now, unlikely hikers to do backpacks. And they’re going to be this spring, releasing a line of 20 backpacks, a variety of activities. And I was actually talking to Jenny about it and, and small things like, it’s not just making sure that the hip pads fit, but making sure that the pocket is actually where it would need to be, to be accessible. If you had larger hips, if you had a larger belly, that kind of stuff. So you don’t have to take your pack off every time you want to grab your phone or check the time or things like that have a snack. So it’s so imperative to be working with plus size people. If you’re designing for plus size people, it’s so imperative to be working with plus sized people. If you’re marketing to plus size people, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve messaged brands and men like all of the copy on your website as flattering. And it just sounds so fat phobic. So like just, just take it away, say a tighter silhouette, say tailored construction. Like there are so many better words, just get rid of that word off your website because it is not helping.

Gale Straub:

What kind of experience would you like to have? Like if you were walking into a, a large retail store, say REI, you know, and, and you’re looking for, for the gear that you need for whatever outdoor adventure you’re going to do. Like what kind of experience would you like to have?

Marielle Elizabeth:

Uh, that’s a wonderful question. And I want to just note that you asking me that question gave me such an emotional response because I can’t imagine what that would be like to shop for snow gear in person at this point in my life. I think it would be having the full range of sizes, not just the one X or the two X. I think it would be bringing in the full range from brands and, and have enough to be able to assemble like a full outfit, have enough to be able to like build all the pieces you need for whatever sport you’re wanting to, to do. And I think a really big onus on the type of apparel that is like not an impulse purchase, but a necessity purchase. The thought of being able to go into a large outdoor retailer and buy a raincoat easily that fits my hips and fits my bus.

Marielle Elizabeth:

And doesn’t feel like it’s low key trying to strangle me. Uh, anytime I move is like, honestly making me tear up, which I think really illustrates the emotional connection to the thought of being able to buy clothing in person about two or three years ago. I went to Calgary. I live in Edmonton. I went to Calgary because I couldn’t find anything in Edmonton. And I went to like, I dunno, probably 15 stores. And there wasn’t a single item above a one XL and I wanted a winter coat and I went to multiple outdoor stores. I went to like, Cabela’s, I went to atmosphere. I went to all of the big sport retailers and then all of like the higher end shops and repeatedly being told, Oh no, they sell that online from their store. You could buy it that way. And me being like, if I’m buying a Canada, Canada goose jacket, I would like to try it on once, please. And thank you before I spend a thousand dollars on that. Um, so I, any amount of outdoor apparel in person would be an amazing first step. I cannot think of a place where I live in Canada, where I could go into a store and buy plus size ski apparel, uh, additional briefly had it, but they closed this summer. Uh, so I I’d say anything would be an improvement.

Gale Straub:

Hmm. Oh. And I’m hearing that. And I’m like, that feels like it’s a baseline, you know, like it’s like, this is what it should, that’s just feels like the minimum. You know, when you say anything would be an improvement. And then I start to think about like, well, what about cuter clothes? You know, like the jacket’s not, it doesn’t just fit and perform. It also looks cute. Or, you know, looking up at the walls and potentially seeing Jenny Bruso up on the wall, you know, like with, with like Unlikely Hikers.

Marielle Elizabeth:

Or even having, you know, plus size people working in the store that have experience with the clothes and can say like, Oh, this works really well. Oh, this like this one, the scene kind of blew out after a while. So if you’re planning on longer hikes, it might not be the best choice. This has lasted me for years. This is the one to get like yeah. A person with product knowledge would be also conceptually fantastic. But I think that understanding just how bleak the like scape is the existing space that we’re in for plus size. People that want to get into the outdoors is so important because if we understand how bad it is, maybe we’ll be more motivated to fix it. And I think that there’s this widespread assumption that it’s so much easier than it is, but right now where I live in order to be able to go skiing, let’s say you were, it’s a Monday.

Marielle Elizabeth:

Let’s say you called me and said like, Hey, let’s go skiing this weekend. If the Hills are already open, it would be so fun. At this point, I would say I’m about three weeks out from being able to go skiing period, because I would need to be buying ski pants, buying a ski jacket, finding base layers, ordering all those things, mail delays. We’re already looking at two weeks, assuming it’s shipping from within Canada. If it’s shipping from the U S unless I’m playing priority express shipping, it’s going to sit in customs for about another two weeks. So we’re looking at, realistically me being able to say yes to your invitation by early January very quickly.

Gale Straub:

Hmm. What about ski boots? Cause you mentioned that you like any boots that fit your calves.

Marielle Elizabeth:

I have no idea what to tell you. Yeah. But that’s a problem I have, I have not heard of any ski boots that are specifically being manufactured for people that need more room in their ankles or calves.

Gale Straub:

So I guess for some intrepid business person out there, that’s a hole in the market. Yeah.

Marielle Elizabeth:

Yes, very much so. And it also reduces the ability for people to casually try something. So I can’t just go to a ski club. Let’s say I’d never skied before. I didn’t know if I liked it. I didn’t want to spend a thousand dollars on gear or, you know, higher amounts of money. It’s less likely I’d be able to walk into a ski club and find ski boots that could fit onto my feet.

Gale Straub:

So you talked about like the importance of the awareness of, you know, how bleak it is, you know, of there not being just these baseline products or this like baseline experience while shopping. And that is important for more people to be aware of that. How can can straight sized people who want to help? What are some ways that they can join in to advocate for, for more plus size apparel?

Marielle Elizabeth:

Oh, I love that question. Um, I think it would be really helpful directly commenting on a brand social media channels and saying like, Hey, I know you sell plus sizing. Why don’t I see more model diversity, I think directly reaching out to your favorite brand. If you have a brand of ski or winter sport apparel that you absolutely love and you check their size chart and they only go up to a large or an extra large sending them an email saying like, Hey, I noticed you don’t have a plus size section. I just wanted you to be aware that this is limiting not only for me potentially in the future, but also for people in my life that I want to be able to experience the outdoors with. I think that it should be made a bigger priority of your business and your company because X, Y, and Z, your brand model is all about people getting to explore the outdoors.

Marielle Elizabeth:

And you’re limiting so many people. I hope you’ll consider that for the future. I think making it clear that it’s not just a plus size issue in my article for the cat, it was something my editor and I talked a lot about because yes, my inability to find the snow apparel makes it hard for me to readily embrace the great outdoors in the winter. But it also means that it’s harder for my husband to be able to take me on winter adventures. Uh, it means that it’s harder for me to go with my friends on winter adventures. It means it’s harder across the board for so many people regardless of size, because it’s limiting this huge part of our population. And I think making it really clear that this is an issue that doesn’t just affect that people, because it doesn’t, it affects all of us.

Marielle Elizabeth:

Um, it can be as simple as I have friends that work as outdoor ed teachers that are plus sized and they struggle to have the appropriate apparel to teach their students in. It affects us in so many different ways. And I think understanding that it isn’t just a fat problem, quote, unquote, but it’s a problem that reduces the ability for people you love to be outside and for them to be outside with you. And then using that as motivation to reach out to brands, you like to reach out to brands that you think could be doing better and to advocate and the same as to, to encourage brands that are offering plus sizing and let them know that you see that and appreciate that regardless of if you actually need to order those sizes. So saying like, Hey, I saw you offered this this line and plus that’s fantastic. Thank you so much for doing that. I look forward to seeing what you guys release next and really making it clear that this is something as a customer, you are watching, you are prioritizing and you are choosing to give your money to brands that are making the effort to be sized diverse.

Gale Straub:

And when you really step back and think about that, those are all fairly easy things to do.

Marielle Elizabeth:

Yes. Apart from designing your own plus plus-size winter apparel line. Yeah. Those would be kind of the bigger things. And then, Oh, and then on the other hand, I think understanding these issues and barriers that your plus sized friends might be facing and then adjusting how you approach winter activities with them. I think that there’s a lot of shame for plus size people for not being able to be prepared or not feeling comfortable in the outdoor space because we never see ourselves there. And so I think that if you have a size privilege to really use that to, to voice that you both understand what that person is going through and that you’re happy to make changes to whatever your plans might be to best facilitate with what they have accessible in terms of clothing, for their ability to get outside. So saying like, Hey, I’d love to do an outdoor activity with you.

Marielle Elizabeth:

What outdoor activities are, ones that interest you or that you feel comfortable doing, or, Hey, I would really love to go on a winter hike with you. I know that jackets and things like that are a really big challenge for people that are plus-sized. Would you like me to help you find some, can I help assist you in shopping? Is there any way I can help take some of this like immense amount of work that goes into finding appropriate clothing off your plate? Um, or, or perhaps they have trauma related to outdoor exercise. And so again, giving them that opportunity of like, Hey, I’d like to go hiking, what’s your ideal hike, or I would love to go skiing, or I would love to go tobogganing or any of these winter things. What, what level or like what, what sounds fun for you within these choices?

Marielle Elizabeth:

Because I think as a plus sized person, it’s already embarrassing enough to say, I don’t have the gear to do that. I can’t possibly find that by Friday, before even going into, like, I’m actually not that comfortable renting equipment, or I’m not that comfortable doing a high endurance levels of activity in winter because that’s not something my body is typically accustomed to. So I think also really kind of meeting your friends where they’re at and, and starting there to build confidence for both of you, that this is the type of outdoor relationship that will be safe, encouraging for them instead of just feeling defeating or like another place where their body or they aren’t measuring up.

Gale Straub:

Ultimately it ends up being a win for everyone because you get to see your friend, everyone gets the positive, you know, benefits of, of socializing in some way, this winter, you know, where it’s so much harder to see people indoors, you have the mental health benefits of moving your body in a way that feels comfortable. Like it’s just a win, win, win all around.

Marielle Elizabeth:

Yeah, I completely agree. I just, I, I think from a lot of plus sized people, spending time in the great outdoors spending, spending time exercising with their friends is something that has so much trauma attached to it. That if you approach it from this place of how can we work together to make this fun for both of us, the likelihood of success is just astronomically higher. And I think again, you know, bringing light to these issues, talking about these things, makes it easier for folks that have never had a challenge finding winter apparel to be more empathetic and understanding that it’s not as simple as just like quickly running to a sport check or an REI to buy a new pair of wool socks.

Gale Straub – Narration:

Marielle has a wealth of expertise and experience when it comes to changing the outdoor apparel landscape to make it more welcoming and accessible for the plus size community. But when I asked her what last thoughts she had for you listeners, she wanted to emphasize that this isn’t just an individual, or a plus size fight:

Marielle Elizabeth:

I grew up playing sports that were like technically individual sports, but in reality, they’re a team sport and I view buying outdoor apparel and buying active apparel in the exact same way. It’s an individual sport. And the fact is that like, yes, this is an issue that I’m facing for myself, where I need to find clothing to do this activity, but it’s a team sport because when we work together and try to dismantle barriers that some of us are facing that others of us are not, we are so much more likely to be successful. And we are more likely to get to the end goal, which is everyone enjoying the outdoors and finding ways to interact during a pandemic safely and finding ways to get back to nature, which I think is just so healing and therapeutic for all bodies. And so instead of viewing this problem as a plus sized problem, that plus size people need to fix viewing it as a problem that the outdoor community needs to fix.

Marielle Elizabeth:

And realizing that if we’re marginalizing, you know, 40% of North America, we’re probably have to do some work to get those people outdoors. I think anyone that spends time in the outdoors would be so adamant about the mental and emotional importance of it, about how helpful it is to just connect with nature, how soothing and therapeutic it is, how good it is to, you know, get that heart rate up and release serotonin and find ways to enjoy being outside together. And when we view this problem as something that until we fix everyone is losing out, I think we’ll be so much more effective in tackling these barriers and pushing that baseline. So the outdoor space is something that all bodies, regardless of size, age, race, gender, and disability challenges will feel welcome embracing. And I think that’s, that should be the goal. That’s the team sport, the sport we are all playing is how do we get people back outdoors? And so even though for me that might look like finding snow bets for everyone, it’s finding clothing and finding the language that is needed to make everyone feel safe and welcomed in this space.

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